Al Sharpton visit forum

Re: Wich One?

crystaleagle — Mon, 12 May 2008 19:39:09 GMT

Isabelle, you are being misled by this person who claims to have true knowledge. Be very careful here. One of the things that this person does not accept and is very hard for most people to accept is the concept that God speaks to his people today by revelation. Yes, revelation, which is one of the serious stumbling blocks that affect most people. Many parts of the Bible and many of its books were lost during the period when the Nicene Creed was written by man, not God, as all of God's Apostles were killed off, with no one to take their place with the proper authority of God.

Hence the Dark Ages. Then Joseph Smith, a boy of 14, with very little education, and being a farm boy, had a vision. Now there are people that have said, Joseph Smith could not have had a vision, but I know he did as I know that God talks to each of us today. Many of us cannot hear what he says, or understand it, as they are not in tune with God.

Modern day revelation occurs now as in old, and that is where the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price and other writings from the prophets of our church come from.

Please pray to God with a sincere heart and with a righteousness desire to know for sure that the Book of Mormon is true, as you read and please speak with the missionaries in your area, for they will guide you as will the members of the Church in your area.

May God's love be with you, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Sister Crystal Wilson

Re: Now Al Oughtta...!

crystaleagle — Mon, 12 May 2008 19:28:37 GMT

This was a great step by the Rev. Sharpton to visit Salt Lake and meet with the leaders of the LDS Church. Most of the comments I see on this posting are from non-members, or members not in good standing, that do not have any clue what the "Mormon" faith is all about. Rev. Sharpton believes in Jesus Christ, although his beliefs are somewhat different, which is his right. The LDS faith also believes in Christ. Both faiths do great work in the communities and the world. So why do we, who call ourselves Christians, judge anyone else or any other faith. As the Bible says; "Judge not, lest ye be judged." These words were spoken by Jesus Christ, on whom most of us believe in this world. So let's be a little more tolerant of each other.

Rev. Sharpton made a great step towards healing hurts between "Christianity" and "Mormonism" and I believe that there is a lot more to take place in the healing process between religions.

Thank you for your interest.

Sister Crystal Wilson

Isabelle, Not...

MaxxFordham — Thu, 31 May 2007 17:32:18 GMT

No Isabelle, I'm not brainwashed. Instead, I'm taught and I study the truths and they are followed up with confirmation by the Holy Ghost. But thanks for playing; better luck next time.

Mike

Nice, Agreed

MaxxFordham — Thu, 31 May 2007 17:28:03 GMT

Hi, D. Bodily,

Whow, you've made a great decision, I'll have to say, and I agree. It's interesting that your mom's a minister from another church, and I bet that sometimes sparks some interesting discussions. Doesn't it?

Mike

Re: Wich One?

dbodily — Wed, 23 May 2007 22:10:26 GMT

"Recommended Resource: Reasoning from the Scriptures with Mormons by Ron Rhodes."

I think the book reviews speak for themselves!

Try using non-biased references next time

Recommended Resources:

World Religions: The Great Faiths Explored & Explained by John Bowker

An Insider's View of Mormon Origins by Grant H. Palmer

I Love Mormons: A New Way to Share Christ with Latter-day Saints by David L. Rowe

hope this helps!

Re: Wich One?

dbodily — Wed, 23 May 2007 21:01:28 GMT

It is clear that you may call yourself "mainstream Christian" however that is not what Jesus or any other prophet was in their day! I suppose if anyone has a web site these days, they are considered an expert on the matter regardless of authenticity or knowledge! Lets look at what you've presented:

"God never tells us to pray about what is true. When we want to know how tall a wall is, we don't pray about it...we get something that we know is true (a ruler) and compare it to the wall. The Bible, God's word, is true. That is our measuring stick for truth"

Which bible was that “ruler” oh, by the way is that English(American) or metric(European) scale? (they are different!)

Luther Bible 1545

21st Century King James Version

American Standard Version

Amplified Bible

Contemporary English Version

Darby Translation

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.

English Standard Version

Holman Christian Standard Bible

King James Version

New American Standard Bible

New International Reader's Version

New International Version

New International Version - UK

New King James Version

New Life Version

New Living Translation

The Message

Today's New International Version

Worldwide English (New Testament)

Wycliffe New Testament

Young's Literal Translation

In any instance your "bible" contains many things that have been changed, voted upon, or deleted from Canon

Where is the Shepherd of Hermas, Apocalypse of Peter, Epistle of Barnabas, or the Epistle of Clement? (Just to name a few) Here is a list of good books (unbiased) to further your education if wished:

The Canon of Scripture by Frederick Fyvie Bruce

The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance by Bruce M. Metzger

What is funny, when you actually think about the statement, It implies that there is no truth without the “bible”. Since it took approx 400 years to compile most of what is found in the western biblical cannon, it goes to say that there was no “measuring stick for truth” for all of earth’s history until approx 400AD. Wow! Not even Jesus Christ’s life, ministry or actions (what he said and did in HIS TIME) was considered truth until the bible stated it was so!

"Feelings are unreliable because they are subjective, easy to produce, and are not meant to discover facts but to tell us how we feel about facts."

Ya, much like RAIN (water falling from the sky) it is also subjective, easy to produce, and is not meant to discover facts but to move water around the earth. And I have found that no matter what I feel about rain, I KNOW that when I stand in it, I get wet! (Do you have a different experience?) The same can be said about the Holy Ghost, No matter how I “feel” about it, I know that it exists (much like rain) and when I choose to follow the “Still small voice” I draw closer to GOD! It is also interesting “FACT” that this is the very way that the bible was assembled and Canonized.

"While we cannot judge another person's motives we can and must judge what a person does or says."

Pause… Sorry had to stop to make sure I really read this correctly is this for real??? It must be a joke right? You just put in to see if I was really reading your response right??? If not, I truly don’t know what to say, because I wouldn’t know where to start! To me it is like saying the earth is flat. While it might have been a good interpretation to try and understand things based upon our limited knowledge at one time, it is in fact Just WRONG!

Final thoughts—I would continue to learn more about your own religion (mainstream Christianity), its history, documents, and beliefs. Get to know the good and bad rather than just quote others opinions. I consider myself a Christian and have a friend who shoots HUGE holes through religion, Christianity, the bible, its history etc… I thank God for him everyday, because I would never have truly studied BOTH sides of religion, Christianity, Mormonism, the bible, etc without his influence! (You see he is not concerned that I may be a Mormon, he is concerned how I am swayed to even think that religion or Christianity are even viable solutions to help anyone live life.) What would you say to him? Would he still be your friend?

I believe that religion was not created to defend, convert, or condemn people, but rather to bless peoples lives regardless of belief.

Re: Wich One?

isabelle — Wed, 23 May 2007 15:00:31 GMT

Now I am running late but no matter what site I go to, it clearly defines the difference between LDS and Christians..

http://www.gotquestions.org/book-of-Mormon.html

: "How should Christians view the book of Mormon?"

Answer: When Mormon missionaries (properly called Latter Day Saints or simply "LDS") come to your door they will often offer a free copy of the Book of Mormon and tell you about its author Joseph Smith. Smith, they will say, translated the Book of Mormon from golden plates he dug up in a hill in New York in the early 1800's. This is supposed to confirm his calling from God as the new prophet on the Earth in these latter days (hence the LDS title). Further, they will tell you that the Holy Ghost will confirm the truth of the Book of Mormon truth by producing good feelings in you. Next will come the invitation to "Read the Book of Mormon, pray, and ask God to show you it is true." Of course you must do this with sincerity or it won't work.

Before you fall to your knees, there are some things you need to know that they are not telling you (and won't unless you ask). The first concerns many LDS beliefs that separate them from historical, orthodox Christianity. These are not found in the Book of Mormon. In fact, there is really very little in that book that is doctrinally disagreeable to orthodox Christians. The real meat of Mormonism is found in their other scriptures, The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price. These books, however, Mormons do not hand out at the door - and for good reason. If people knew up front what they were really going to be asked to believe (things such as God once being a man, denial of the Trinity, Satan being Jesus' brother, pre-existence of souls, etc.) they may not be quite so willing to put aside their skepticism.

The second thing to realize is that to accept the Book of Mormon, one is in fact accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet. So what about this test of prayer? Isn't it legitimate to "give this question up to God?" No, it isn't. This is because God has already revealed His test for would-be Prophets - and it has nothing to do with prayer or feelings and God has no obligation to answer prayers that he has already answered! We do not have to ask God whether or not we should rob a bank or murder someone. Rather, James 1:5 says "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God . . . and it will be given to him." Wisdom is applied knowledge, not lack of it.

God never tells us to pray about what is true. When we want to know how tall a wall is, we don't pray about it...we get something that we know is true (a ruler) and compare it to the wall. The Bible, God's word, is true. That is our measuring stick for truth. See Acts 17:11 for example - it describes a group of people who were considered noble because when Paul came to them with the Christian message they "received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so."

Feelings are unreliable because they are subjective, easy to produce, and are not meant to discover facts but to tell us how we feel about facts. Psychological persuasion techniques, intensity, eye contact, or mere desire can produce feelings that feel real - because they are real! But real feelings are still just letting us know how we are reacting to something, not the truthfulness of that thing. The Mormon missionary handbook specifically details these techniques and missionaries go through training on how to persuade people before they ever leave the house.

What are the biblical tests for a prophet? They are in God's Word: Deuteronomy 18:21-22 says, "You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." Did Joseph Smith ever claim "in the name of the LORD" that something would happen when it did not? Yes - many times in fact.

Joseph Smith prophesied that New York would be destroyed if they rejected the [mormon] gospel (D&C 84:114-115). He also prophesied that the rebellion of South Carolina and war between the states would result in war being poured out upon all nations; slaves would revolt; the inhabitants of the earth would mourn; famine, plague, earthquake, thunder, lightning, and a full end of all nations would result (D&C 87). Oddly, this prophecy is the one most often cited by Mormons to prove Joseph Smith's prophetic power!

Further, Deuteronomy 13:1-3 says that "if a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul." Did Joseph Smith lead his followers to other gods? Yes.

Joseph Smith was a polytheist. History of the Church 6:474 records Smith stating, "I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods." Joseph Smith declared that "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345). This is clearly not the biblical God.

"? Yes.Galatians 1:6-7 says that people may be "turning to a different gospel-- which is really no gospel at all . . . trying to pervert the gospel of Christ." And he pronounced a curse upon them for doing so. In Romans 1:16 Paul tells us that the gospel is "the power of God unto salvation" - that's pretty important. Did Joseph Smith teach a "different Gospel

Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon contains the "fullness of the gospel." The Book of Mormon says so itself in its introduction (see also Doctrines and Covenants 20:9; 27:5; 42:12; and 135:3). So what is the gospel according to Mormonism? It's a tough question for many LDS to answer. According to Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie, author of the book Mormon Doctrine, the gospel is "the plan of salvation [that] embraces all of the laws, principles, doctrines, rites, ordinances, acts, powers, authorities, and keys necessary to save and exalt men." In other words, the whole of Mormon theology. In the Mormon gospel we see belief + repentance + baptism + laying on of hands + temple work + mission work + church ministry + tithing + ceasing from sin + abstaining from the use of intoxicants and strong drinks and tobacco and caffeine + confessing Joseph Smith as Prophet + temple marriage + baptism for the dead + genealogy research . . . the list could go on and on and on. Only upon completion of all these things may Mormons attain to the third and highest level of heaven thus achieving the ultimate goal of the Mormon gospel - godhood. (see McConkie, Mormon Doctrine 116-117; Book of Mormon [3 Nephi 27:13-21]; Doctrines of Salvation 1:268; 18:213; The 4th Article of Faith; Smith, Gospel Doctrine pg. 107; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 3:93; 3:247; 9:312; Gospel Principles 290; Doctrine and Covenants 39:5-6; 132:19-20). In essence, Christ's death means nothing more to a Mormon than the gaining of the ability to be resurrected so that their works may be judged.

While we cannot judge another person's motives we can and must judge what a person does or says. Joseph Smith, and hence the Book of Mormon, fails the twin tests of Deuteronomy 13 and 18. God takes false prophets very seriously. Deuteronomy 13:1-3 says, "That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God...; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you." Deuteronomy 18:19-21 says, "If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death..." And Galatians 1:8-9 says, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"

The gospel is God's power to bring us to Him. He will not stand for those who would pervert it. He has given us the ability and the responsibility to discern whether or not this is happening. We must carefully investigate the claims of the LDS if we are to follow what God has commanded. In fact we are invited to judge by Mormons themselves: "Convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any." LDS Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.15

Recommended Resource: Reasoning from the Scriptures with Mormons by Ron Rhodes.

Re: Wich One?

isabelle — Wed, 23 May 2007 14:41:47 GMT

before I go here is a definition of a cult and why people get so so offended when others say they belong to a cult but it sure does sound like the Mormon Church to me.

Religious Cults: The Christian Perspective
Christians define religious cults from a different perspective. Simply, a cult is any religious group that deviates from the fundamental teachings of the historic, Bible-based, Christian faith as confirmed through the ancient ecumenical creeds. Generally, if a religious organization follows Jesus Christ, but denies or distorts essential Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the resurrection, or salvation by grace alone, that organization is considered a cult. Traditional examples are the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, the Unity School of Christianity, and the Way International. All of these groups add to the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. In addition, some add to the Bible, such as Mormonism's The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price. Similarly, Christian Science has added Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures. The Jehovah's Witnesses have actually changed the text of the Bible to make it fit their version of doctrine.

Religious cults add their own rules, rituals and ceremonies -- their own works of righteousness to the finished work of Jesus on the cross. These organizations officially state that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for salvation, but then they go on to say that their version of "works" must be added to the simplicity of His grace in order to warrant true salvation. These groups will often use James 2:26 ("faith without works is dead") to establish that works are part of salvation. Although it is true that faith without works is dead, it isn't the works that save us. Works are merely the result of a truly changed life through a saving faith in Jesus. A true Christian does good works because he has received the free gift of salvation, not to get salvation.

Religious Cults: Why Does It Matter?
Groups like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses reject their categorization with other "religious cults", because the emotional reaction to such a label often gets in the way of mainstream conversion. Actually, contrary to their historical foundations of deeming Christendom to be misguided, evil or apostate, most of the aforementioned cults are now claiming to be Christian themselves. They declare the Divine authority of the Bible, but they manipulate the scriptures to suit their own purposes. Although they claim to serve Jesus Christ, and may use Christian terminology, their doctrines are dangerously different. Why is this an issue? Why can't we all just get along? Because these organizations don't lead to the Jesus Christ of the Bible, but to another Jesus and another gospel message altogether. If these religious groups are based on bad history, or bad doctrine, or bad motives, then we must respectfully expose these shortcomings. If these religious cults are presenting false teachings, then multitudes of people are being led astray

Re: Wich One?

isabelle — Wed, 23 May 2007 14:38:29 GMT

Here it is taken from about religion . com

What it means to be a "Christian"

http://www.allaboutreligion.org/christian-church.htm

Specifically this

Christian Church: Become a Member
The Christian Church is comprised of those who have been redeemed by Christ who died on the cross and rose again. They are justified by faith in Christ alone. They are not saved by false teachers, compromised gospels, by their works, by a building, or by a religious ritual. They are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. "

As a true Christian we are not judged by our works, by having a "Temple" or false prophets.

That is the definition of Christianity. Just because you believe in some form of God and Jesus does not make one a "Christian".

I'm heading out of town for a few days but just thought I would clarify what the definition means. I guess once you are brainwashed, nothing is going to change your mind. So, good luck .

Re: Wich One?

dbodily — Wed, 23 May 2007 04:14:13 GMT

Mike, I agree I believe that truth can be found everywhere even Lucifer uses it mixed with lies to convey his messages. I believe that everyone can know the truth by listening to the "still small voice" and when acted upon men’s hearts will be softened as you stated. I do believe that we are all gods’ children and he can “reach” any one of us through any means.

I myself have attended a few churches (Presbyterian, Catholic, and LDS) my mother is a Presbyterian minister at this time, and I have been pleased to find many common truths and beliefs in all faiths around the world. With that said I have found more of a fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have also witnessed the power necessary to awaken people not just to believe but also to act on their belief. After all, “Ye shall know them by their fruits”, James stated "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works! It has been my experience that many "mainstream Christian" churches/members often are not very service oriented and do not truly emulate the life and ministry of the Savior in that respect. At least not to the extent that that I have seen the LDS church does. With that said there are good and bad on all sides and this has just been my experience! I want to emphasize that I am not putting down any religion or church. And I am sure many will jump on me for buying my way into heaven ;) I would submit to them that I have been bought with a Price and wish to repay my master by doing His will!

Wich One?

MaxxFordham — Wed, 23 May 2007 02:55:05 GMT

Isabelle, you said, "As a mainstream Christian, and others would agree, it not the true church."

But which "it" of these were you were referring to: Al's, or the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS? I don't know how much truth the Pentecostal church (which Al is a reverend of) has, but I understand it does have some, of course. All churches that believe in good and things which come from a higher power of good do have some truth to them. I also know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true.

Yeah, you're right, someone who's been rather derogatory shouldn't join the Church of Jesus Christ until they change their ways. I don't know about Al that well, so I don't really know how derogatory or nice he's been, mostly. But I was just saying that if this experience turns him into someone who's much less derogatory than it sounds like people are saying he is, and he felt the Spirit enough from it, I hope he joins. But yeah, if someone was going to stay mean after joining, then it would probably be better if they didn't. But sometimes joining does help to soften some people's hearts, while with some other people, they already softened their heart when they made the decision to join. To me, it already sounds like Al did soften a little from his visit. Maybe that'll grow. I just hope I'm not being gullible. :D

Mike

Yeah, by Themselves, But...

MaxxFordham — Wed, 23 May 2007 02:43:54 GMT

Yeah, D. Bodily,

Oh, yeah, Al's probably pretty set in his ways, but if he really will walk his talk--especially this talk from his visit here (I mean that it wasn't just a visit to make us think he's nice so we won't want to keep him in hot water for his statement that he's saying was misunderstood, but that he really did want to learn more about the LDS Church), then he's not such a tough guy after all. Right?

And yeah, suppose Al did get touched by the Spirit enough to actually join the Church of Jesus Christ (of LDS), then of course we wouldn't want his congregation to just blindly follow him to it. I agree with what you say: we'd want them to generate their beliefs and faith in the full truths by themselves, for themselves. But what I was saying is that if Al really did feel enough of the Spirit from his visit to the church parts of here (and do the accompanying things like reading the Book of Mormon and gaining a testimony of its truth, etc.)--and yeah, I do think that would be a big step for someone like him, but nonetheless, it is still possible--well, then hopefully he'd tell his old members just how much the Spirit did touch him from that, and how much truth it has added to the truth he and they already have. Then hopefully he'd invite them to investigate this for themselves and and make the decision for themselves. And then hopefully they'd do that. So basically, what I was saying is that if he joined and then told them this, that'd probably be a good catalyst. Wouldn't you agree, D. Bodily (and others)?

Mike

Re: Probably Won't, But...

isabelle — Wed, 23 May 2007 02:23:20 GMT

As a mainstream Christian, and others would agree, it not the true church. But, we are not to judge. Our day will come when we are judged by the One who matters.

I am not saying he shouldn't join because of what the LDS believe. I just don't think the LDS church or any other needs someone like him as a member unless he changed his ways.

Probably Won't, But...

MaxxFordham — Wed, 23 May 2007 01:38:21 GMT

Hey, Isabelle,

Yeah, it probably won't happen (as I even said), but why wouldn't you want Al to lose his old church and join the true one, along with his followers?

Re: Now Al Oughtta...!

dbodily — Tue, 22 May 2007 23:58:04 GMT

Whoa brother, I don't know about all that, I just hope he walks his talk. I don't know much about the man, that is to say I only know what I see in the media. He as many others have said many things that can divide people rather than bring them together. I hope if he is a civil rights activist, that he is more pragmatic in his approach in helping his fellow man... All his fellow man regardless of race, creed, color, sex, religion, background, history, etc... We live in the here and now and should try to influence the here and now, based upon what is happening here and now! Not attempt to hijack history to promote our own agendas or "correct" past misdeeds unless they are still occurring here and now!

As for his followers, I hope they will not be "brought along" so easily. No I believe that everyone has a core belief system to which they base their reality. This set of beliefs will grow and be ever changing over time based upon experiences, but eventually will "give way to" or "refine" a core/base set of beliefs. (Truths based on their experiences and environment) Some people who subscribe to religious/faith-based beliefs tend to have many of those beliefs at their core usually brought about by INDIVIDUAL deep conversion. (The very reason why they are at the core) Thus I feel that anyone being able to change religious beliefs so easily did not deeply believe in what they subscribed too in the first place. I am a hot or cold type of guy, not luke warm!

It is my hope that those "followers" are truly "believers" and if a change was to occur as you suggest I hope it comes from within and not from Al's Decisions!

Ps. Mike, I do hope your right!